Even if the world continues to celebrate success and stigmatise failure, we can’t deny the profound importance of embracing setbacks as a crucial stepping stone to personal growth and resilience. How, then, do we encourage our kids to embrace failure?
In the fifth episode of Growing Pains, we have a thought-provoking conversation with Oi-Yee Choo about how she instils critical skills such as resilience, risk-taking, and more in her Gen-Z daughters.
Find out how to let children experience failure, allow them to take risks, and equip them with financial literacy.
Time codes for key talking points in this podcast episode
00:00 – Welcome to Growing Pains
01:11 – On Raising Gen-Z
09:51 – Sharing about the education system
13:49 – Risk-taking in sports
18:56 – How to talk to your kids about money
23:20 – How do we teach kids to learn from their mistakes?
29:19 – Reflection on the conversation
Further reading
Featured voices
- Angela Neo, host of the Growing Pains podcast and mother of two.
- Sufyan Saad is a lifestyle writer at The Honeycombers. He was previously at HoneyKids Asia.
- Oi-Yee Choo is a former investment banker and currently CEO of ADDX, a global private market exchange headquartered in Singapore.
Growing Pains is a modern parenting podcast where we tackle the constantly changing landscape of parenting in Singapore. This season, we dive deep into modern parenting challenges: navigating the digital age, teen mental health and more during our candid conversations with parents and experts on this Little Red Dot. Tune in now! Follow the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Full Transcript
Angela Neo
Gen-Zs have a terrible rep – some people say they bruise easily, they’re entitled, they’re spoiled. But in reality, it’s not easy growing up in today’s ever-changing digital age – they’re the first generation to straddle a digital and physical world in their formative years.
Welcome to Growing Pains, a podcast by HoneyKids Asia that explores the challenges of modern parenting and provides a safe space for parents to navigate the ever-changing landscape of parenthood.
My name is Ange; I’m a mum to two boys – Xavier, who’s 11 and Marcel, who’s 9.
In this episode, we chat with Oi-Yee Choo, mother of 2 Gen-Z daughters, about how she’s equipping them for the world. We’re going to learn how to let children experience failure, allow them to take risks, and give them the tools to choose their own paths in life by teaching them financial literacy.
Hello, Oi-Yee. It’s so lovely to have you on the podcast. Thank you for joining us today. It would be great if we started by learning a little about you.
Oi-Yee Choo
My name is Oi-Yee. I’m the CEO of ADDX. ADDX is a private markets platform. It’s a FinTech company based here in Singapore. We focus on private market investments. [That’s] a part of financial literacy [which] will be quite interesting because it does blend in [ideas] around work and family.
I have two daughters; one is turning 19, and the other is turning 17. They’re big girls now. They’re in high school. One is going to college. So, I’m in sort of a different stage of parenting, which is quite interesting. My husband works at Pricewaterhouse [Coopers]. So, we both work, and our work takes us out of the house quite [often].
But the girls are at the age where they’re very independent. But we try and do holidays together and have a lot of fun conversations about financial literacy and work and all of that.
Angela Neo
What is it like raising two Generation Z daughters?
Oi-Yee Choo
What’s quite interesting is how technology has changed from when we were kids to now when they are kids. As parents, [we’re] watching that evolution and the technological disruption to parenting and teenagers with different social lives and how they experienced that. And that’s just at the social level.
At the educational level, schools have had to adapt to technology as well. All of a sudden, you see the kids becoming very digitally native. They learn online. With home-based learning, they do a lot of that. In school, almost everyone’s given either an iPad or a laptop when they’re younger.
So, having a Gen Z [child] actually means that [parents] have to be very conscious of what that technological disruption does [positively and negatively]. The second thing is [that] parents are always a generation behind, right? Whether it’s the artists that are current, the kinds of songs, movies, shows. They are actually the same and different.
So, for example, my younger daughter loves Friends, right? She’s watched a replay of that. It’s come back and [is] in vogue. [So] keeping up is important. I mean, [we do] not necessarily [have to] be quite into it, but understanding [what] they think, what are the themes, what impacts them as Gen Z kids [is] very important.
Angela Neo
That’s true. As they get older, it becomes more important to be in their conversation. And if we can relate to what they’re watching or at least [to] know what they’re watching.
I assume with teenagers – my boys are still a little bit younger – being able to converse with them on things they’re interested in is also important, [so is] understanding their current culture.
Oi-Yee Choo
Yeah, so both my daughters are Swifties.
Angela Neo
Oh my gosh. Yes.
Oi-Yee Choo
Yeah. My younger daughter [is] a massive fan. She sings as well. She’s really good at singing. She loves Taylor Swift. She was in the car, and I [told] her, ‘the radio was doing this competition where they were playing a little bit of a Taylor Swift song right at the beginning, and it shocked me that I knew the song.’
When they played that first few seconds, just [at] the five-second [mark], I [knew] it was ‘Antihero’. And I said to myself, ‘Oh, no, I’ve become a Swiftie.’ [My younger daughter] was so pleased with that.
Angela Neo
Another label that Gen Z have is that they’re the strawberry generation. For our listeners who don’t know what that means, it’s a kind of slang way of saying that they bruise easily. Do you agree with this statement? Why or why not?
Oi-Yee Choo
I agree, and I disagree. I think there are many reasons we focus a lot on academics with our kids today. There are a lot of kids at the margin. [Suppose] they are not doing well in school; as parents, we tend to sacrifice, for example, sports or the arts, right? Because we’re like, ‘okay, we’ve got to give up something to make this work.’ So I think that focusing on economics [has] many unintended consequences [with regards to] being [active]. You know, so how do you build resilience? It would be quite lacking.
And I think that’s why the word ‘strawberry’ is quite commonly used. But having said that, with my kids, I was quite focused on making sure they were good at a sport. [They] didn’t need to be Singapore top, [or at] Olympic level. But it was important, they built that discipline. Quite early on, I made my older daughter take the public bus to school. So the idea is that ‘you’re not being driven to school all the time, so [learn to become] organised.’
You’ve just got to deal with public transport and the rain and all of that. So, I think giving them opportunities to explore outside of what is really a bubble of safety and comfort. [That’s] going to be important to try and [ensure] our kids don’t turn out strawberries. I think the other thing is [that with the increased focus] on academics, the kids then struggle to find a passion, right?
And I think a lot of the energy and the resilience comes from being passionate or being very good at something and wanting to keep at it. Right, if they’re not very good at it, or they don’t have the exposure to it, then it’s very easy to sort of give up at the first go and say, ‘you know, this doesn’t work for me.’ So there are a lot of aspects to the word ‘strawberry.’ As parents, we [must] think hard about building [kids’] resilience and passion.
Angela Neo
I also think in terms of self-esteem, if you’re good at sport and perhaps not as academically inclined, you’re not pushed into the thing you’re good at. And the thing that your parents put value [on] is the academic side, which is important – education is really important for all of our children.
And we hope that they can access as much learning as they can. But they also need to feel good about what they’re doing. And if they’re good at something, and you’re not allowing them to give that a go or experience that, as you say, in terms of self-esteem, I assume it wouldn’t be positive in terms of their longer-term mental health as well.
Oi-Yee Choo
I think a lot of these are self-reinforcing. But it does take time. You can’t do it once. And then you do have to keep going at it, learn, fail, improve along that.
Angela Neo
And I think if you’re motivated, you can get Maths, and you can get English [even] if you’re not just naturally gifted in those areas. So another thing you have said is that children in Singapore are over-tuitioned and over-coddled, and that’s not preparing them for the real world; perhaps elaborate on that for us.
Oi-Yee Choo
I think it’s part of the same idea here. As parents, we focus on getting them on track academically, right? They must be on track because we think they [must] be ‘this, this and this’. And when they start missing or slipping, or they feel like they’re not ‘there’ on certain subjects, our first reaction is to find a tuition teacher, right? And once we get a tuition teacher, what happens is the child may or may not need to focus [at school] because they know they have a backup.
So there’s always a reliance. [They think] ‘if I don’t know how to do this, there’s always back up at home. The tutor will assist.’ So intellectually, that means that the child doesn’t try to learn and solve the problem. [They’ll] just say, ‘oh, I have my tuition teacher tomorrow, and you know, she’s going to help me solve this problem.’ So I think that creates a reliance on having lots of backup. And I think the child doesn’t learn how to learn or how to solve problems or how to get it wrong.
I think our kids [are] so scared about getting it wrong today. They always have to get it right. And sometimes, [getting] it wrong is how you learn. This is wrong and, therefore, what is right? So that’s actually a skill set, a life skill, [especially] when you go out to work. It’s not always about [getting] that precise 100% score on that Maths test.
It is about how you walk someone through solving a problem. If you’re doing [it] in a logical way, and that social interaction is important. The other thing is that by focusing too much on books, kids don’t get the opportunity to [interact socially], like when they play sports, are competitive, or work in a team. I think all this builds character and a lot of the softer skills that we need today because the technological disruption that’s happening has to be counterbalanced by soft skills. How do we, as humans, bring that together and bring that to life?
And so I feel sports and social interaction are important. All these skill sets come outside of academics. So if we over-tuition them, we don’t leave room for them to play or explore friendships; there needs to be a balance.
Angela Neo
You’ve also suggested the shift in mindset needs to start in the education system itself. How do you think it needs to change?
Oi-Yee Choo
I think we need to start to be very thoughtful about the curriculum and the content versus the approach and the learning. Because I think what’s happened over time is we’ve piled up on the curriculum without necessarily changing [how] it is being taught. I was talking to my team about a professor who said that the accounting standards fit into 100 pages decades ago, so he could just memorise those. That content would be fully in his head.
Today, it’s like 1500 pages. So how do you absorb that [much] content? So then the learning approach becomes different. And I see those different styles across Singapore schools. I see that across international schools. I love the way some schools try and move towards the love of learning.
I think it’s a lot more about engagement in class, asking questions and challenging each other. It’s less about the answers. I think we need to move away from memorization and rote. Because, as I said, there’s not enough brainpower to capture all that information today.
Angela Neo
Also, as AI and technology improve, we need to be the problem solvers rather than provide answers that will be automated at some point or already are, and we are just not aware of the technology yet. Right?
Oi-Yee Choo
Yes, I think that’s exactly right. I think what that’s happening. [It] is disrupting jobs.
Angela Neo
Yes.
Oi-Yee Choo
It’s automating a lot, even at [the] entry-level, whether it’s accounting or legal; we all hear about how AI or machine learning is disrupting that work. And so when an individual or when a child goes through the university education, it may well be at the end of that, the job doesn’t exist any more.
Therefore, what core competencies and skill sets should our kids have to embrace today’s new world? Is the technology [aspect] important? Or are soft skills important? As you said, problem-solving becomes important, not just about, ‘oh, I can do this because you don’t have a checklist’ that used to be important. That doesn’t work anymore.
Angela Neo
We need to think outside the square now.
Oi-Yee Choo
We do.
Angela Neo
How can parents encourage their kids to lose and be okay about it? What are some of the ways perhaps that you could give us some tips?
Oi-Yee Choo
I’ve tried for a really long time. When one of my daughters struggled with Mandarin, we sat down and had this conversation. She was quite young. I said, ‘you know, look, it would be good if you kept trying and sort of figure out how you need to learn if, really, there are some spots that we need, let’s say, some backup or [a] tutor, then we [can] get there.’
I [didn’t] want to step in with a solution immediately because they have time to learn. [It took her a few] months. We did get a tutor, but she tried this and that for some months at least. We [found out] exactly where she needed help, and that became easier to support. Similarly, I think sports is a very good representation of that.
Academically, sometimes, the teachers may not have that kind of space. Of course, I try to encourage failure in as many ways as possible, but sports has become a very good way of doing that. For example, one of my daughters had an accident and was injured for a long time.
So the learning process to come back was something that mentally she had to get past physiotherapy, start training, start small again, and fail. [Compete] with half of what she [used to] be, just learning to come back.
Angela Neo
And that builds resilience.
Oi-Yee Choo
That’s resilience. Yeah.
Angela Neo
Is it better to over-prepare children for the future or let them live in the moment and be kids? It’s very difficult nowadays when you feel like you want to arm them with all the tools they need. But at the same time, their kids, it comes one time, and then it’s over; we don’t get our youth back.
Oi-Yee Choo
I’m having this debate right now. Because my 19-year-old is going to college [soon]. She’s got a lot of time, and my instinctive reaction is [to ask her to] get a job [or an internship]. My immediate reaction is, ‘go get an internship with, you know, Insert square bracket, law firm, or accounting firm, whatever that is.’ I [held] myself a little bit back. I had to rethink what I said. I said, ‘look, actually, this is a good time for you. First of all, enjoy yourself, because you just finished a big exam, don’t take too long. But also look for [internships] in June, [things you won’t necessarily do].’
I mean, like, for example, I said, ‘go work in a cafe, right? Go do something different. Be a production assistant in a film production company or something that’s out there. It would be something that you could learn a different skill set, doesn’t necessarily have to be, you know, an internship at whatever firm or whatever that is.’
Angela Neo
Your daughters learnt risk-taking and experienced it from a young age. Can you shed more light on this for our listeners?
Oi-Yee Choo
Well, risk-taking. With one of them, [it was] in [her] choice of subjects in school. I think we had to let her choose the courses she wanted to work on. You know how it is, right? You [would] say, ‘oh, do certain subjects because you can score!’ Well, yes. We decided to let her take subjects that were that she was passionate about but not necessarily the easiest to score, right?
And so I think you’ve got to give them that space; I think you’ve got to give them the ability to think that they can do it. And even if they didn’t come up with a desired end result, it wouldn’t be so far off. And we could just sort of work with it instead of resisting in the first place and not letting them take that risk.
Angela Neo
Was it difficult? Did they want to go and pursue a similar career to you or your husband?
Oi-Yee Choo
No! Sadly, no!
Angela Neo
Yeah, and was that difficult for the two of you?
Oi-Yee Choo
Yes, but I think we also have to acknowledge that. Who knows if these roles will, like I said, be available anymore? I think we’ve just kind of got to trust a little bit in the parts of the institution and where they end up. Hopefully, the skill sets and the competencies they build are not so narrowly focused that they don’t have much optionality or flexibility [from] a degree.
The fact is that a degree is just a degree, right? The content is just content. And then what do you do with that? [That’s] probably more important. But, you know, frankly, if I reflect on it, a lot of my friends [don’t] work in the same profession as we did with our degree. And so, should we be too obsessed about that?
Angela Neo
Exactly. And so many people, that degree is the foot in the door, and then it opens up from there in terms of, particularly if you join certain companies, you can be moved into something that’s way outside of your training. So many lawyers end up in compliance, or [they are] doing something creative or leading tech. It’s a step in the door a lot of the time.
Oi-Yee Choo
Yes.
Angela Neo
As the CEO of ADDX, I know you’re involved in finance, investments, and wealth management. How do you talk about these things with your daughters?
Oi-Yee Choo
I’ve had to think quite hard about making it relevant without getting their eyes glazed over. It is not an easy topic. Frankly, I don’t think I discuss it enough, even socially, with my friends. So, it’s not just about my kids’ financial literacy. With [the] girls, I think the most important is not to over-technicalise it. The idea is [that] investing is actually part and parcel of our lives. It’s not something that I’m going to say, ‘oh, you need to be an investment banker to understand investments.’ It really is about how you use the money you save [most effectively].
So, I’ve tried to simplify that but then [I] also think about the day-to-day topic they can possibly relate to. So, we had a small apartment that we rented out. [We had a] conversation around rentals. Mortgages become part of a dinner conversation; it could be something like, ‘oh, you know, rentals are going up? How should we deal with this? How will the cash flows be better or worse? What does interest rates rise in mortgages mean for someone who has an apartment, who’s taking money for rentals, and paying that out?’
The second is encouraging them to experiment [with] small things. So when they were one of them was quite young, they wanted to buy these toys and sell them to their friends. So it became a bit of an exercise, maybe too much. But [we asked questions like] ‘what are you buying it at? Where are you selling it at? Where are you getting the money from? How are you paying off other things?’
And then the third thing is because they’re older now, I can bring a lot more into the debate onto the dinner table, like we’ll talk about Bitcoin. What does that mean? How does the world see it? And debate the pros and cons and interesting topics that they will likely read about or see even at their age and bring that to life.
Angela Neo
How prepared are they in terms of their financial futures? Is all this information being consumed and retained?
Oi-Yee Choo
I don’t know yet. As I mentioned, [I have been] trying to get the older one to think about getting a job and making some money. She’s got some coaching slots [so] she will start making a little bit more regular income. And so I said, ‘you know, I think it’s about time you looked at different ways of deploying that the cash or not just spend it all on hoodies, or merch and all of that.’
So she laughed, and she said, ‘okay.’ So, we talked about some of these micro-investments that are out there. I mean, [it] doesn’t have to be something sophisticated, right? In reality, it’s just understanding what’s out there for her investment size, which is very small. What does that mean? Is that, is it 2%? Is it guaranteed by someone? Is it in Singapore dollars or US dollars? Do you go through Grab or some of these new digital platforms? So, she’s been [doing] research to figure out what’s interesting and out there for her.
Angela Neo
When we talk about risk, there will be instances where losses and mistakes are made. How can children learn from these and pick themselves up again?
Oi-Yee Choo
I think it’s not just children. I think it’s all of us, right? We do it all the time. I think the best way to learn is to do a lot; in other words, it is called diversification. And through diversification, when you’re investing in certain things, you will learn about what the investment is or how the investment might react, right?
If, for example, you invested in a bond or fixed income and it moves with interest rates, then you know what happens. If you don’t, you don’t know what’s happened. You never learn and get better at it. And also, diversification provides a good base, right? Because you’re not completely invested in one investment.
Angela Neo
All in one bucket.
Oi-Yee Choo
All in. That just doesn’t work unless you can 100% predict where that [will] go. And so I think getting them to learn and appreciate different investment aspects, whether it’s, by the way, kids or even ourselves. I think the most important thing is to hold on through different cycles. So that you also get a sense of managing [and] selling your stocks or your bonds.
Should you be trading it? Should you be just investing in it long-term? Therefore, you [need to] think. Let’s say, in my 20s, I have different cash flow needs versus a 35-year-old who has a young daughter or a 45-year-old who has a daughter going to college. So, understanding your own cash needs is also important in planning. So when they’re young, they are just starting off their career.
They’re just starting to save, and they actually want to have a fair amount to spend and save. So they think about, ‘okay, what are the bite sizes that I could potentially lose all that money? Or what is there that I want to stay safe? I can make a fixed deposit income, some kind of regular income that’s safe.’
Or what am I willing to take a risk [with]? So, I think that there’s no real answer for many exploratory things, just because everyone’s risk appetite is different. I feel, for example, that men tend to be a bit less risk-averse. So, they explore riskier assets. Women are, again, very stereotypical but are generally more risk-averse. So they generally prefer something with a lot more protection. So explore that, explore that and know what you’re comfortable with. And I think that’s the best way to learn.
Angela Neo
How about for our listeners with younger children? How do we start to introduce being good with money? Or what is money or all of that? How did you start that with your girls?
Oi-Yee Choo
That is actually quite tough these days. Because, you know, a lot of parents complain. Because you seldom use physical notes anymore.
Angela Neo
No.
Oi-Yee Choo
Even in schools. And so, actually, [we’re not counting cash]. That’s why my kids love Chinese New Year; they’re like very happy counting that cash. It is harder because it’s all in the cards, right? There are like e-cards, and you just kind of tap it. They don’t even look at how much it is. They don’t even know how much it costs. So having a more deliberate conversation like, ‘oh, I’m giving you, for example, $2 a day for your allowance, you’re only gonna get $10. So even when you’re spending, [using] the card, be aware of how much you’re spending and how much is left.’
I think those are some very basic-level conversations. But today, again, it’s no longer about that. Saving is probably not enough. Maybe the idea is to introduce very basic finance concepts like what a company is and what happens when you own a company’s equity. You need to talk [them] through what is a business. [I think] you can start with very basic things. Hopefully, they don’t roll their eyes. Hopefully, they remember that.
Angela Neo
Let’s end the interview with something a bit fun. What are some things that you’ve learned or picked up from your girls?
Oi-Yee Choo
Well, Taylor Swift [is] one of them. I am a Swiftie. Antihero is my favourite song. I learned many things from them because I watch and want to learn the world through their lens. And so, I see what they pick up. I [do] not necessarily like [the] kind of new social media they’re on, whether it’s Tiktok. I listened to a podcast, and they talked about [what] the metaverse is building for this generation. We should understand what they’re doing, right?
So I pick up [from] talking to them about Discord. What does that mean in terms of the social media evolution? You know, I learn [a lot] from them. For example, my daughter wants to go to the US to study. And I’ve never had that opportunity. So we’ve both had to learn what it means, what the degree means and how to explore that.
I look at how they would have to take on the world as it were, and you kind of want to learn from that because they jump into a world that’s so drastically different from ours. I feel so sheltered. I also learned from them because I think it impacts what we do at ADDX. We’re such a young company. We need to watch what’s happening, the Gen Z trends, what’s happening and follow that.
Angela Neo
Oi-Yee, it’s been such a pleasure. Thank you for joining us today.
Oi-Yee Choo
Thank you for having me. Thank you.
Angela Neo
Thank you, Oi-Yee, for our chat today. I am now joined by our Podcast Producer, Suf, to chat a little about today’s episode. Hey Suf!
Sufyan Saad
Hello.
Angela Neo
So, what did you learn from today’s episode?
Sufyan Saad
I like the bit where Oi-Yee talks about learning from her daughters. That’s very refreshing to hear. Because I feel like it’s all about learning from one another, right? Although I feel kids are too young to understand money matters, it’s still important.
And the way she talked about it, it makes them understand it a lot better, you know, to get them equipped with all these things. [It’s] better to do it right now than later, right?
Angela Neo
I also think that when you’re younger, if you start to learn about money and how to use it, and what it means and how to save, it will allow you to do so much more when you’re in your 20s and if you’re sensible with your money and what you’re able to save. So yeah, that was very helpful.
Sufyan Saad
Yeah. Because I had to learn on my own. My parents didn’t explain it to me. So it’s a lot of trial and error. So [having] your parents go through the steps with you so that you are better equipped is a very important skill to have, especially in today’s world where everything is cashless. And you’re paying by debit card.
Angela Neo
Oh yeah, I feel like you tap everywhere. And then, at the end of the day, go, ‘how much money?’
Sufyan Saad
Yea! Correct. So, Ange, have you discussed money matters with Xavier and Marcel?
Angela Neo
We do. I think I could definitely be better. And we have started talking about introducing pocket money. I was a little resistant to pocket money because I felt like when you have it, you start to think about how you will spend it. If you’re not given any, you’re not spending money.
But I also think that you need to learn how to handle money and how to save it and what it can buy. So we’re just starting to introduce that with the boys now. We talked about things like if we have purchased something and need to wait a while to buy expensive items and understand that we can’t always have whatever we want to eat or have all these treats and things.
So we find ways to talk about money with them. But it is something that I think I’m going to spend a concerted effort going forward.
Sufyan Saad
It’s a process. I like that part where you are introducing pocket money because I think if you delay doing that, then it makes them rely on you a lot. But when they learn the value of money, they become more reliant on it and understand it better.
Angela Neo
That’s right. Well, thanks, Suf. So, that brings us to the end of today’s episode. Thank you for listening, and we will see you next time.
We hope you enjoyed this episode! Let us know what you think at [email protected]. Tune into the next episode next week.